While I understand the content is being removed, you keep saying you would like "official sources" - meaning "scans from the artbook that confirm this".
Scans from this artbook do not exist fully online (I have researched). In order to produce these scans, one would have to purchase the book and make scans/copies of literally all of those related pages. I find that rather reduntant (making scans of all the pages?) but I would be willing to do it (sooner) to resolve this. If the artbook does confirm the others' "official ages" (for example, the translator also mentions Kido's "official age" is *also* listed as "17", too, despite Kido *chronologically* being 16/"younger than Kano" - I actually never knew this before the translator pointed it out, despite being in this fanbase and following news information for years) those can still be used as reference, while trivia notes can be made noting the chronological timing issues surrounding August 15th and related dates. This is the only way you would find an "official source" for this information that I know of ("online").
In the event that I obtain and/or list this information, how should I submit it to you, then? Through this response/another thread at a later time? (You closed the other before I could ask this...)
I was pointing out Shintaro's age in the lyrics because before I thought before maybe the info on his age could have come from his page in the booklet (as you saw, it didn't) - his page wasn't linked on the tumblr post I found, so I wasn't certain. I apologize if that caused further confusion. But, the "Lost Time Memory" lyrics definitely state "18 year old [boy]" regardless, and I was pointing out that likely related to Shintaro's age confusion. "Lost Time Memory" is usually associated as "Shintaro's song". I was (attempting to) answer your (previous) question about how the age confusion could have come about to begin with.
The Tateyamas info will take some time to cover, but it'd be covering Manga Route 2 and the last handful of / final novel(s). The distinction between "fosters" and "adopted" (in Japan, because of Japanese laws and cultural aspects, not in the English sense, where they're often considered "the same thing") is very important because Kido and Kano's relationship particularly has changed during this timeframe, to where they may not acknowledge each other as "siblings" (despite still seeing each other as "like a family" [not literal family]). There are many assumptions still being made about the familial terms used between the Trio, especially on Kido's page where only "citation needed" is noted ("brother" and "sister" - this is false. They only ever use these terms towards Ayano+Kenjirou (not Ayaka, to my knowledge, though I'll have to research and look up the specific kanji they around her appearances) and possibly between Kano and Seto in MCA only - never each other, and even the Kano and Seto moment doesn't happen in other official timelines.) The distinction is, again, important to understand the Japanese honorifics used between the Trio and how they're used, and timelines details. The "adoption" between the Tateyamas was not finalized and this is important (in the Japanese sense) to analyze their relationship using the official provided texts. If one were to update the Wiki pointing out their relationship had changed, articles continuing to list them as "siblings" would simply cause further confusion. Please let me know if this is understandable? (I am only pointing these things out in order to attempt to list accurate information, for the record. There are many things "lost in translation" because of this issue that would make little sense to one who does not understand Japanese terminology. I hope this makes sense and I apologize for any confusion.)
(By the way, I am not saying the "like a family" reference[s] can't be kept. It is still an important theme in the series. What I am referring to is the distinction between "like a family" and seeing as literal family. Because, in the Japanese cultural sense, there is a distinction that does not often exist in the "Western" / US sense, especially concerning honorifics/how they refer to each other. I can provide multiple sources including multiple kanji lookups/scans [and can even look up simple kanji used in the novels myself] if you need them for confirmation.)
One further note (apologies for additions, I'm just trying to explain/clarify) - I recently learnt through another Wikia that there is also a Wiki feature called "Notes" instead of "references" (for making notes on things that aren't "references")? Is this a feature this Wikia has too? If that's the case, such info on "official ages" and "conflicting ages" [as noted in the artbook] can be noted under 'notes' instead of 'references' if they can't be used as direct 'references'. Please let me know if this is making sense? Thank you.
On Kido and Kano + Tateyamas (this may take a while to read in full as well, I apologize but it's important information):
First of all, I would like to briefly summarize some things (Novels and Manga Route 2 mainly, but also the others in general) [also, please ask me if you'd like further reference for anything stated]:
(by the way, any emphasis noted is just for emphasis, nothing more)
- The Mekakushi Trio never use keigo (can also include honorifics - see: "japanese honorifics" article on main Wikipedia) between each other. This was at Kido's request in novels/manga timelines only [not shown directly in MCA]. (Kano, in the manga route 2, was thinking he WAS going to use keigo before she said that. -can link this too if needed. from the official translation, too, for profiles/trivia notes) However, the lack of using keigo does *not* officially confirm anything across all timelines/routes that can be easily generalized. *Every officially published timeline/route is different, with different events involved that change other events.* That can only be confirmed by the end of respective routes and only with statements from all the characters involved [how they last mentioned they saw each other as], and statements from official materials i.e. the guidebooks. Manga Route 2 has *not* yet ended - it is ongoing, with further developments being made with Kano, Seto and Ayano (who are all alive). Kido is killed in Manga Route 2 per Clearing Eyes *before* Kido re-meets Ayano in this timeline. - The Mekakushi Trio DO use keigo (personal honorifics) with Ayano/Tateyamas/etc. This distinction is important. One's personal honorific =/= (does not equal) another's personal honorific, and between specific persons too. Ex. Kano->: "Kido" [always], "nee-chan" [Ayano, initially, during childhood]. Mary (Manga Route ONLY)->: "Kido", "(o)nee-chan" [the latter for Ayano.] (-can cross-check / provide honorifics charts for all members of this group using official material, though it may take some time to gather.) (the 'o' is a bit more formal. Onee-chan = technically a level higher/more formal than just 'nee-chan'. 'Nee-chan' drops the 'o' so it's a bit more informal/kind of like a nickname.)
- Mekakucity Actors and recent guidebook Japanese relationship charts *always* note "childhood friends" between *all of the Trio* for their "relationship", not "siblings" like they do for the Kisaragis. (Can link official scans of such - two of them - for reference if needed + kanji lookups.) - In the manga, Mary joins the Tateyama household for a *very brief* period during the late summer. August 15th happens not long after, and Ayaka Tateyama is killed in the landslide. The timeloops "catch" everyone involved, though Ayaka is *always* dead in most confirmed timelines, especially this one. - The adoption of the trio is *not finalized*. This is important to note the *differences between 'foster' kids and 'adopted' kids in Japan, also for proper representation.* Each, in a real world setting but likely also in the fiction, faces *different societal and cultural issues* based on *surnames* (family names) OR "lack of" they 'inherit' or not. Rules for ADOPTING, example, *are/seem very/quite different for rules for fostering.* This is also what helps note the difference between the two. I can detail these further too if needed and already mentioned some references/notes below. - It is very likely Jin was writing these portions of [the story in general] to showcase a serious story concerning fostering and/or adoption, OR the differences between them, and how a foster childs' feelings may change regarding their being fostered vs being adopted. Jin is Japanese. Japanese culture is reflected in various other aspects of the story/supplementary art/etc. The story takes place in Japan, they all have Japanese names/etc. ("Kashiwa City" is noted in the television screens in Konoha's State of the World's pv, among etc. sources iirc, later "Chiba" prefecture is referenced in the later Manga Route 2, etc. "Chiba" is a real prefecture in Japan.)
- Chapter 38, "Children Record I" (bolded is for emphasis) scene:
. Mary notes the relationships between the psuedo-"family" have all been changing since Ayano died.
She literally says this in conversation with Seto: Kano: Kido's really bothersome... Kano: "I'll go look for Hiyori", she said, hasn't it been six hours now? Wandering around somewhere without preparing dinner... Seto: It was your turn to make dinner today.
Mary: Even so, Kido used to be a lot scarier. (note: she only uses "Kido" iirc. no -san, etc. personal honorific. unlike Kano's later used honorific for Ayano for example [mentioned at end] [I can double check/cross-check this if needed] [while this could be because of 'keigo', note Seto in manga route 2 once says (images linked below) '[you (Mary) can call me Kousuke]' implying she at least had permission to refer to him by first name, even if she chooses not to. She doesn't use Kido's or Kano's first name, it appears.) We didn't talk much at first... Kano: She had an unpleasant look in her eyes and was really blunt back then.
Kano: Now, Kido's softened up. Mary: You're right Mary: She became more relaxed after moving here Kano: (slight frown) Kano: Well... lots has happened. Everyone's changed in their own way Kano: Kido probably thought she needed to be more level-headed. Kano: Except her harsh attitude towards me hasn't changed at all~ (tiny text/speech: She's quick to beat me up anyway.) Mary: ...... Mary (staring): Kano, do you think Kido likes you?
(note: "like" = "suki". In the cultural sense, Japanese people *do not often use "aishiteru"* for *like/love even when married*. -can provide references)
Kano (panel, eyes widening and a slight blush appearing): Kano: ......... Mary (clasping hands, happily): It was written in a book I read. "Girls are cold towards who they like" So I think Kido's always liked you~ Kano (shifting eyes to side): N- Noo~ Kano (trying to deny): I don't think that applies to her. Not at all... Mary: .....
Mary: Kano, do you hate Kido? Kano (eyes wide): Huh..? Mary (staring, again): Or do you like her? Kano (sweating): Noo~ I mean, um... Mary: (direct staring, with a close up of her eyes)
Seto: Dinner's ready~ Where's Kano...? Mary: He ran away Seto: "Ran away"...? Seto: Then I guess I'll dish out two portions and warm up the rest later Mary: Seto...
(the following pages/scene immediately following are important for Mary's character development notes + Seto's)
Mary: Do you think everyone changing was my fault? Seto: (surprised stare) Mary (eyes shadowed): Ever since the day I was brought to everyone... They all... [Onee-chan] too... (note: note the 'o' in front of 'nee-chan' - personal honorific.) (image of Ayano back then) Seto: (pats Mary's head) (sound effect: 'pat') Seto: It's not your fault, Mary. Seto: Humans are always changing, little by little.
Mary (focus on eyes, then shifting downwards): But I haven't changed at all... Ever since that day... Only I... Seto (a bit shadowed over): Mary... (a photo frame is pictured behind him) (in the photo frame is Mary together with the younger Ayano, Kido, Kano, and Seto.)
- Not long after the flashback arc involving Mary + Tateyamas [Ayano's Theory of Happiness in Manga Route 2]: Ayano reveals to the Trio (with Mary present) that the only way they can stop this is to kill Mary. The trio stares at her in what appears to be horror (Seto somewhat shielding Mary). Kido punches Ayano in her upset, reflecting an earlier chapter where young Kido punched hard enough to draw blood, and quickly apologized. This time, Kido does not apologize, instead remaining upset. Ayano tells Kido she can punch Ayano as much as she wants but the situation won't change. A very tense exchange then occurs between Ayano and Kano. ["I told you..." "...didn't I...?" "Shuuya..." "...Your [onee-chan] will always be with you..." -Ayano (looking blank eyed, Kido's punch mark still visibly on her cheek.) (note the 'o'nee-chan - Ayano tends to use this.)] The Trio + Mary are then shown to have left the household. The official timelines all state this as "Kido, Kano and Seto leave the Tatayema household" (can link/reference). This occurs during all Routes. Ayano tells Shintaro possibly she was 'insane' in that moment.
[ "I know I said..." "...that I thought I'd go insane." - Ayano (recalling) to Shintaro (close up of her blank eyes when young included) ]
- In a later manga chapter, Kano encounters Ayano. Kano calls Ayano with: "(o)nee-chan" He changed the honorific to indicate there's distance between them now. (-can reference usage of honorifics and why this is a valid reading) (o)nee-chan is a level more formal than without, and Ayano reacts in turn. (-can link)
[ the plot continues from here ]
[ Kido is killed via Clearing Eyes before she can reunite with Ayano / redetermine status. Kano reunites with Ayano after that. After some tense discussions between only the two of them, Kano reinstates *his personal honorific of 'nee-chan' ['like a sister' (not literally)] towards Ayano*. The others in the Trio do not use this in the exact fashion/timing as Kano does. Seto's status towards Ayano remains unknown as of the current chapter. None of their personal feelings in general towards Kenjirou + Ayaka are known at this point in Manga Route 2 specifically, except maybe Kano's and only Kano's. Only Kano's personal honorific towards Kenjirou is known in the novels, not the others iirc -can cross-check.]
The problem with continuing to list Kido and Kano SPECIFICALLY as seeing each other as siblings [and only siblings in the generalized/literal sense] is this. In the Japanese cultural context, most of these "clues" (blushing, the use of the word/phrase "suki" towards a person, etc.) in anime/manga/etc. Japanese media tend to hint towards clear romantic undertones, or at the very least, implied. Translator Zushilove, who is a native Japanese person from Japan, has noted these things too. Note that unlike the Kisaragis in a previous early chapter (start of Manga Route 2), who vehemently denied Momo being Shintaro's "girlfriend", Kano does not do the same here.
So the unfortunate issue that arises is "there are clear romantic hintings that would be summarized/noted, but there are continuous incorrect references to them still seeing each other as generalized 'siblings'" [which are, in actuality, personal honorifics, orlack of, being lost in translation.]
Is this understandable?... (Please let me know!)
The distinction is important to me for providing accurate information on the plot/timelines to the fanbase. *I do not necessarily consider them to be a good pairing nor enjoy it. I believe this entire issue has only complicated their storylines, including the one between Seto and Mary, who have definite "hints" between them as well.* But, it is canon information, and if one were to summarize canon, and minimize confusion, one would have to include it, along with further "moments" from the later novels, noted specifically for Novels Route and Novels Route only. [Including in, the final novel, a "confession" ['"kokuhaku"] line from Kano in thought, towards the girl I liked', heavily implied to be Kido. - can provide reference/dictionary lookup on "kokuhaku" kanji as well and can attempt to find where it's used in novel 8, along with multiple translator accounts / summaries confirming such. Including, i've noticed, you have already linked on a 'community' page many translations/translators?.....]
a good reference for adoption in Japan vs. some things on fostering (for cultural notes/summarization or trivia; warning: can be triggering all around in the articles, but the differences are very important, such as surnames not changing for foster children vs being changed for adopted children, also mentioned by the translator linked earlier):
"Adoption through the local child guidance centre (CGC) is the cheapest and most straight-forward method. Interested prospective adoptive parents (PAPs) register as a foster-to-adopt family (this is separated right from the start from *foster-only families*) and attend some basic training. A CGC worker will conduct a home visit and basic interview (although one couple I spoke to just submitted a floor plan of their apartment) then approve the application. When a child becomes available the PAPs will be taken to the orphanage to visit the child, then asked to make a decision. If the PAPs want to go ahead the CGC will place the child and the PAPs can apply to the family court for an adoption. There is a six month trial period during which the PAPs are paid a foster family allowance. If there have been no major problems after six months, the court will approve the adoption. Some families “foster” for longer than the minimum period, holding off applying for the adoption for months or even years and continuing to receive government payments. CGCs place children under the age of six; after six the adoption law changes and as far as I understand the situation most CGCs no longer seek families for older children.
CGCs have their own individual guidelines for approving PAPs. Some require very large living spaces, leading to complaints in Tokyo particularly that the requirements are unrealistic. Some require PAPs to have a high income or to be certain ages. Some accept single applicants while some will only consider married couples. It seems to depend entirely on your location."
(you will note: Kido, Kano, and Seto *are all older than six years old in the current timelines*. if they cannot be adopted if going by real world cultural references, *this is important to note*. Also, Ayaka died before any adoption could be finalized, in every timeline thus far. She remains a "foster parent" in Japanese legal terms, not an "adoptive parent", and the distinction remains important regardless of personal honorifics they use towards, say, Ayano but not themselves.)
"Because of the deeply rooted importance of the family as a multigenerational corporation in Japan, familial continuity and stability of household leadership are given precedence over consanguinity."
" Adult adoption, just one solution to the restrictions presented by a rigid system of succession, ensures the presence of a household head. The Koseki, a family registry system, legally defines the head of a household, whether the head is male or female. Adoptions are officially recorded in a family’s Koseki.Adoption secures a full legal, ideological, and kinship role as a son or daughter for an adoptee. An adopted adult forgoes his original surname and line of descent and takes on the adopted family’s name and line. Any children born to an adopted adult, such as to a mukoyōshi and his wife, are considered part of the adopted family’s descent. Adopted adults also accept the responsibility of the adequate care of the family’s ancestors in accordance with Buddhist doctrine."
(you will note: Kido, Kano, and Seto all retain their original surnames. none have the surname of "Tateyama", again as the translator noted. This is importantfor the distinctions in the Japanese adoption system and because of the storylines involved which Jin may be 'commenting' on, and for noting if proper *representation*, as well.)
"When an adult is adopted into a family in Japan through regular adoption (Yôshi engumi), they are expected to inherit the adoptive family’s name in exchange for an inheritance. He is also expected to take on the adoptive family’s ancestors. Terms of the adoption are that families cannot adopt more than one adoptee if they already have children. If the prospective adoptive family is childless, they can adopt two children. The adoptee must be at least 15 years old, and must be at least a day younger than the adoptive parents. The current average adoptive age is about 20–30 years old." ..... "If the adoptee decides to go back to his biological family, goes missing, or deserts his adopted family, the adoption can legally be disolved."
"families cannot adopt more than one adoptee if they already have children"
"if the prospective family is childless, they can adopt two children"
(you will note: Mekakushi Trio consists of three-four children [four if including Manga Route 2 Mary]. They also already have Ayano. While circumstances could have changed between them and real world rules, in the fictional sense as well, it's also entirely possible Jin could be 'commenting' on these types of real world adoption/fostering laws differences and how relationships between the Trio may change. The linked translator mentioned in the novels, at first they thought the Tateyamas only considered adopting Kido - 1 child.)
I can also provide further reference on personal familial honorifics (i.e. "nee-chan") and why they do not always mean 'literal family' [this also stated by native Japanese fans]. short version: they can still use personal honorifics towards Ayano/Tateyamas that they have previously, and it would not change their relationship nor the significance of their personal relationship with Ayano/Tateyamas. they *can* use different honorifics between each other if they decided they wanted to again, however - or they could simply continue to forego them because their relationships had changed, and they remain close if not close(r) (including as not 'siblings', if this is the case).
Please note I'm simply trying to state things as clearly as possible here so please let me know if I'm being understood or not. Thank you.
(linked manga scans - beginning is Seto+Mary scene w/Ayaka noting a use of "(o)nee-chan", further down is officially translated/published Kano+Kido scene plus Seto+Mary)
("childhood friends") - another direct source/reference
(There is no reason why relationship charts - in written text/kanji, not spoken word [personal honorifics] - can not use "siblings" if they really saw each other as direct siblings only. The Kisaragis, for example, likely do use "siblings". Adopted siblings and even foster siblings who saw each other as only siblings can likely use "siblings".)
The distinctions are important as well, however, because the personal honorifics they use between each other *in one single Route* (ex. MCA) does not reflect *across every other Route* nor in the same fashion. For example, scenes used in MCA do not happen in the Manga, Novels, etc. They would only apply to MCA as of those specific points in the timeline. This happens with some other characters too besides the Trio.
[Novels Route scan as of the 2014 guidebook. Zushilove apparently did not get to translate this Route from the current book yet, but this scan is for reference for Novels Route and to prove her word/translations are accurate. If you compare you will note they use near exact events/grammar/etc. Again, these scans were circulated in the fanbase as of 2014.]
Q "If the manga route is a sequel to the music route and the prequel to the novel route, then what about the anime? Is it placed between any of these?"
A "For the anime route apparently Jin has commented in an interview that
“It is the closest route to the latter”
That’s pretty much the only information we know for the timeline of the anime route so far^^;
Also maybe everyone already knows this but another interesting fact is that there is a scene where a construction site appears in episode 4 (right after the opening), and there is a signboard that is written “Until October 7th, 2200″. So people are estimating that the time is set around in that year."
It is also interesting how despite such a supposed far future timeline, Jin apparently chooses to not improve orphanage conditions for the Trio's storyline. This likely also includes strict adoption laws (or their surnames would have all likely changed).
I hope these references can be considered seriously, as they are all direct scans from official sources. If they can't be included as references despite being scans (and official material), would as "notes" or for trivia suffice?
(My earlier comment with this did not go through, so just in case, I am sending this again.)
In conclusion, what would be much more helpful for summarizing is if instead of generalized terms like "siblings", instead things like simply their names alone being used in the bodies of articles would be very useful. Developments elsewhere (changing of relationships across specific Routes) could then be noted in specific episode listings, chapters listings, novels chapter listings etc. This would also be helpful for characters not just Kido & Kano, though they are most notable because of this issue. (For example, it'd be wrong to generalize Seto and Mary as "siblings" in written text across all Routes when they only share the Tateyama household very briefly in Manga Route 2, and then their relationship with the Tateyamas - at least Seto's - is noted to have changed later in the same Route, chapter 38. They also have some clear romantic undertones in other Routes such as Music Route, etc., which do not involve the Tatayemas storyline at all. I hope this makes sense?)
I've got hold of the asstest of some of the music videos (Sidu's), I'd like to add them to the songs' pages but idk how to make an image board thing or if I even can. Could you tell me how to do so? idm sharing a drive folder of them with you if it'll be easier for you
This is probably long forgotten about, but there was a trilogy of novels written about the Mekakushi Dan finding a girl named Sasha (サーシャ) back in a campaign called Mekakushi Dan: Watchers from Summer 2014 to early 2015, and I was wondering if she should be added to the wiki. Unfortunately, not a lot of information is available about her, but she is nonethless a character in the franchise, albeit in a spin-off. She has a character design done my Sidu as well.
I wanted to start an event on the wiki so I made a blog post for it but if you don't want me to create events, That's fine. You can even take it down if you want. I just thought it would be a fun event to do. ^^
It's fine to forget things~! I forget things all the time~! >w< Good luck with the wiki~! I'll try to update the chapter summaries when I'm not lazy.
Edit: I'm sorry for asking so many questions ;-; But, can you help me with the template? Yeah, I'm not very good with coding, so I don't know what to do about it. Here's the page. The template is very messed up, and I don't know what I'm supposed to fix. Again, I'm very sorry for asking so many questions. ;_:
Sorry for the late reply! I tried to fix the template as well as I could. Unfortunately, I cannot figure out why the overview shows these gray boxes on your template instead of using a clear background and a smaller font. It might be because our wiki has some coding installed that yours doesn't have... I will continue to try figuring it out, but at least I got it fixed so far that it is usable!
We have considered creating such a page, actually. However, a big problem there is that we really do have absolutely no information about them, beside their really small appearances, which are all mentioned in the histories of their respective death partners. We may create a page if we happen to get more information on them, though!
Since I was thinking of replacing more images in the wiki, I was wondering what catagory I should put the old images in, since it would be tiring for you to delete them when I ask a favor for you to delete them.
Oh, it's actually possible to simply overwrite files, if that makes it easier. You'd simply have to upload a file with the exact same name as the one you wanna replace, then a message pops up asking if you want to overwrite the file. It usually takes a little until the image is updated completely, but it would be easier, I suppose.